DÉFENSE ZONE
Welcome to Defense Zone, the podcast that explores defence and security issues through interviews with service personnel, members of law enforcement, politicians and entrepreneurs.
The aim of this audio programme, available on all online podcast platforms, is to open the doors of a usually rather secretive world to the general public, in order to prompt reflection on questions that concern us all, whether political, geopolitical, economic or more broadly societal.
In this new episode we meet General Hervé Longuet, president of the Union Nationale des Combattants (National Union of Combatants) (UNC). This former fighter pilot, Grand Officer of the Legion of Honour, who notably led the action of the French air forces in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, talks to us about his career and his new mission at the head of the UNC. Founded in the aftermath of the First World War, the association aims to defend the rights of combatants.
DZ: Good morning, General. Could you introduce yourself?
GEN: I come from the Air Force. I had a career as a combat pilot, and I had the privilege of spending my career in an essentially operational sphere, first as a pilot and then on the staff.
DZ: Among these operations, could you mention a few missions you carried out?
GEN: The first significant operation in my career took place when I was a Jaguar pilot in 1977. I belonged to a unit whose mission was external action, under defence agreements with a number of countries, including African countries, so as to intervene if their stability was threatened. It was at the time when Western Sahara was claiming its independence and attacking Mauritania in particular. The Sahrawis took French nationals hostage in Zouérat and it was decided to intervene, both to protect French nationals and for a country that was calling for help because it was being economically strangled. We were deployed to Dakar and we flew strike missions. As soon as we were on alert, we tracked the columns and went to neutralise them.
DZ: You then took part in the Gulf War?
GEN: Yes, at that time I was on the staff, deputy chief of operations at the Combat Air Force, which operates all the combat aircraft. I was deployed at the very start of the Gulf War. When we arrived there, the Saudis were not necessarily expecting us. They were asking for combat helicopters, but we insisted on taking part with aircraft and a ground force. So we set up with Jaguars, reinforced by F1CRs (reconnaissance aircraft that also had a bombing capability), and Mirage 2000s (to help defend the airspace).
It was quite interesting given France’s political position, in particular that of its Defence Minister, Mr Chevènement, who feared we would be swallowed up by the Americans. I was in charge of mission planning, and coordination was not always easy.
DZ: That is still the logic of NATO today, which is very much dominated by the Americans. When the French, German or other forces come into it, is it always complicated?
GEN: Yes, indeed, because the Americans have a whole logistics system and an extraordinary capability in communications and logistical support. That is where their strength lies. In NATO, all communications support is American.
DZ: The French position at that time was to support the coalition and be there just in case?
GEN: The French position was to be present because there was an international UN resolution. So France, as a sovereign country, took part, but within the strict terms of that resolution, which was the liberation of Kuwait.
During a major three-day exercise, the entire training theatre (in Saudi Arabia) was frozen for the benefit of that exercise. Either we took part, or we did not fly for three days. I found it an interesting opportunity to step out of our daily routine and have the support of a general exercise, in which you get into the full workings of an air operation. In terms of planning, there were two entities: the KTO (Kuwait Theater of Operations) and the Black Hole (thinking on more advanced strategy for deep strikes).
Finally, at the end of my career I was “Rep France”, the person who represented French command in Florida for the engagement of our forces in Afghanistan. That person is there to check that the French assets made available to the coalition comply with the terms of the planned mandate.
DZ: Can you tell me what your role at the UNC is today and what it involves?
GEN: First of all, note that it is the National Union of Combatants. Not of veterans. So by definition it is intergenerational: there is continuity and a torch being passed on. I did not know the veterans’ world well before joining it, because I sometimes reduced it, wrongly, to something rather outdated and backward-looking. For me, veterans were the flag bearers you saw on 11 November, and I could not see at all what potential there might be behind that. It was only when I joined this association that I saw the full range of possibilities we had. We rely on three things: we are intergenerational, we are non-political (which gives us “legitimacy”: no one can suspect us of working for a political cause), and we have a very strong presence across the country. These are three strengths that will serve us in carrying out our action, which is solidarity with our elders, our comrades and the wounded (those cared for by the institutions, and those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, which can be treated but can resurface, or appear a few years after leaving the institution). Our role is something of a lookout role. Our presence across the country allows us to detect these wounded people and victims before things go any further, and to reach out to them.
DZ: With what resources?
GEN: There is no question of taking the place of specialists, social workers, psychiatrists and others; that is not our job. For us it is about detecting them, reaching out to them and gradually trying to bring them back into a normal setting, but without any therapeutic claim. It is complementary. For example, ATHOS houses are being set up. We help people find their way there. It is about showing them kindness, telling them that we do not treat them, but that we can help them rebuild themselves through a project of their own.
DZ: Do you have examples of people who have come to you?
GEN: It is a structure that is being set up with a working group of wounded personnel. We have indeed appointed contact persons in each département, who are there to organise this lookout mission. We have already brought back people who were in a state of extreme drift.
DZ: Then you put them in touch with the institution’s services?
GEN: We try to bring them back. It is not easy work, but we can be a link to bring these wounded people back into a normal system. There may be failure, but we have to try and not give up. We can give them back their dignity; it is important, it is our duty.
Another aspect of solidarity is helping all those who leave the institution, especially those who leave after 4 or 8 years without a pension. Suddenly they find themselves in the civilian world after the protective cocoon of the army, and a whole integration process is needed. With our network across the country we can help them, show what needs to be done to people who are a little lost in the face of the French administrative monster.
We can also help them with career transition. Once again, we do not compete with existing structures (Défense Mobilité, whose support lasts three years). We have signed a partnership with an organisation called Implic’action. It is a flexible structure with, on one side, people who have left the army, made a career change and know the codes of the civilian world; and on the other, those who are entering the civilian world and looking for a job. It is a kind of coaching that allows the jobseeker to build their project, guided by a former soldier who knows how the military works and also how the civilian world works, to help them integrate successfully.
DZ: Does this apply to all generations? When we talk about veterans, as you say, we picture rather elderly people attending ceremonies?
GEN: Indeed, but I am trying to revive our momentum somewhat; we have a working group coming up… The advantage of these older people is that they are part of the landscape, they know their surroundings perfectly, and that is a strength.
DZ: You talk about a fourth generation on your website. What does it refer to?
GEN: The challenge today is that we are dealing with generations that are psychologically and sociologically completely different. Of the first three generations: there are none left from 1914-18, very few from 1939-45, and few from Indochina and Algeria too… If we analyse what they did, I define it as a unity of time, place and action. These were wars that lasted a set period, what I call the unity of time. The unity of action was defending France. And the unity of place was France. The same goes for 1939-45, as for Indochina, even though it was an expeditionary force, and the same in Algeria. Second important point: it was a conscript army, of national servicemen (except Indochina, which was a special case).
We now have a new generation of volunteers who are remarkably well protected by the institution. Remember that veterans’ associations were created to defend the rights they claim, and to remind the state of its duties towards them. This young generation of volunteers does not operate in a national theatre: the unity of place is not there. Nor is the unity of action: it is the Sahel, Afghanistan, Kosovo, etc. The older generations came together to celebrate what they had lived through together, a shared experience and fight, even if they were in different arms. Today it is completely different and we must take that into account. Volunteers do not all come together, but rather in regimental associations. That is the challenge we face in how we must envisage the future and how we can engage our young people. We have to show them that we are something other than people who celebrate 11 November, that we have a certain momentum, and all the points mentioned earlier.
The other important point is that the unknown soldiers of yesterday must not become the overlooked soldiers of today. Soldiers are in rather abstract theatres: in Kosovo, in Yugoslavia or in the Sahel… Public opinion may be moved when so many dead are brought home, while not really knowing what they are doing out there. There will be a collective emotion, but it lasts two days and then people move on. There is not the persistence there should be about what soldiers do, their mission, their sacrifices, the singular nature of their profession. For the soldier is an unusual citizen: duty of discretion, duty of availability, no right to join a union, and no right to withdraw, unlike any other civil servant (when a civil servant considers that their convictions or safety are at stake, they do not go; the soldier does). We must constantly carry this message to citizens and politicians: this is what our soldiers do, their sacrifices, what you owe them.
DZ: Does that involve communication campaigns?
GEN: Yes, it is about presence and gradual influence on the ground.
DZ: Is that part of your remit at the UNC?
GEN: The UNC is a federal organisation of about 170,000 members today. We are organised at département level, then into more than 4,000 associations. I am asking them to move beyond the image they have and to show something else.
DZ: There is a Secretary of State for Veterans’ Affairs? What is your relationship with them?
GEN: There is a Minister Delegate for Remembrance and Veterans, yes. We are in contact almost daily. In France we have a body, the ONAC, the National Office for Veterans. We have in fact asked for the name to be changed to “combatants”, because there are now more than 230,000 OPEX combatant cards. The notion of conflict as in the old days is over; we are permanently in the field.
DZ: That is precisely what is hard to understand: a young person who enlists at 18, does their first overseas operation at around 19-20, and comes back after a four-month tour, is considered a veteran?
GEN: Yes, you need to have completed 120 days of overseas operations to get the combatant’s card, with all the entitlements attached to it: a “golden” pension from the age of 65 (€730 a year), the option of a mutual-insurance annuity, and a half tax share less at 74. But what matters is that the public authorities pay attention, and I find having a Minister Delegate extremely important. The ONAC also looks after the wounded and career transition; it is a state body dedicated to combatants.
DZ: It is interesting to show the differences between conflicts, which have evolved, and to show that every day there are new “veterans” who are 20 years old.
GEN: We are working on this with a senator, who has asked for the name to be changed to the National Office for Combatants. It upsets established ways of thinking, but that is the truth.
DZ: In this link between generations, we talk about the duty of remembrance. Is there nothing in common between that of 1914-18 or 1939-45, when the national territory was being defended, and today’s, when people go off to carry out a mission?
GEN: Among the major commemorations, 14 July, General de Gaulle’s appeal, 11 November… I consider that 11 November, as a remembrance ceremony, is the essential one. We must focus on that date. Why? Because it marks the end of the Great War, but above all it is the tribute paid to all those who died for France, from the Poilu of 1914-18 to yesterday’s OPEX soldier. This sacred chain of those who died for France is expressed through ceremonies, and that is the sacred bond between all generations. When we talk about the duty of remembrance, it means not forgetting. But how do we not forget, and how do we pay tribute by passing it on? How do we pass it on? Through testimony, through schools (which means having a strong relationship with teachers), and that is our civic duty. Through our past, we are bearers of citizenship. Because combatant memory means explaining that from the Poilu of 1914-18 to the soldier in Mali, these are people who are there to defend freedom.
Today, we have sadly witnessed the tragic beheading of a teacher, Samuel Paty, because he taught a number of principles intended to anchor firmly in young minds the notion of freedoms, freedom of expression and discernment. He had his throat cut for that. I draw a parallel with our young people in Mali. It is not quite the same, but the goal is the same: they are fighting barbarians precisely so that we can always keep this freedom and so that our students can carry it forward. That is how I see the role of remembrance. It is a way of carrying a message of citizenship. There is History, which is a somewhat cold science, and there is memory: centring a ceremony on a figure or an event that marked a town, for example. Such a ceremony is prepared in advance and allows those who work on it to make it their own. You can ask young people to do readings, invite a soldier back from an overseas operation to give testimony; there is dynamic and intelligent remembrance work to be done and tailored to the circumstances.
DZ: Isn’t this perception by the civilian world decreasing in intensity? We sense growing distrust of the army, or of soldiers, in the mainstream media or in the image citizens have?
GEN: I would say that the distrust that exists is not the kind of distrust there may be towards the police, for example. Soldiers are well liked; it is just that we tend to forget them a little. The distrust you mentioned is not so much towards soldiers as towards the way they are used, so it is a political distrust, not a distrust of those who are in the theatres risking their lives.
DZ: Not everyone makes the link between soldiers and how they are used?
GEN: Today that has changed. I believe the army has a fairly positive image, but the problem is that this image suffers from a great deal of channel-hopping. 14 July is still a very powerful ceremony. Our aim is to keep this enthusiasm alive, to give it persistence.
DZ: When we compare with the United States, for example, we realise there is a very strong feeling, almost a love for the veteran, for the soldier who fought for democracy, for freedom. Why don’t we have that in France, in your view?
GEN: Because we are an old country! When I was in the United States, there was not a single event I attended (a baseball game, for example) without the American anthem and everyone with their hand on their heart. Around 1974 there were nonetheless strong protests over Vietnam. But I think it is in the American mindset: the citizen defends their values through their democracy, through the army. It is completely different.
Our veterans are supported by a state body. The Americans have a system of patronage, and all operations are “charity business”. All their associations are wealthy because they do not live solely on members’ subscriptions but on everything that patrons and supporters can give them. We have the Bleuet (cornflower): we sell it, and the money collected goes to support the ONAC’s social work. The British have a similar action, the poppy (the little red flower), organised as “charity business” and not by a national, federal office. At the Bleuet’s best, during the war centenary celebrations, it raised 2 million euros. Once the emotion of the centenary had passed, and with the lockdown problems today on top of that, collections dropped a notch. The poppy brings in 50 million euros a year. It is not the same business; the spirit is completely different.
DZ: Perhaps there is also more openness to the private sector?
GEN: It comes down to a completely different relationship. It is the French state mindset: we have soldiers, the state looks after them, so we do not have to. In the English-speaking world it is different.
DZ: A word on recruitment. You are at the end of the chain, but ultimately the start of the chain matters too: if a young recruit does not know you exist or what your missions are, it will be hard to reach them later. Do you do anything at that level, during basic training for example?
GEN: I have asked that we take part, where possible, in the SNU (Universal National Service). But these are fairly local initiatives. When you carry remembrance as a strong element of citizenship and go and bear witness to young people, it gives them an idea of what a soldier’s mission can be. We open up a world to them that takes them out of their daily lives and video games. Then we have some interesting local initiatives, in particular through the flag and flag bearers. And in some départements we have created a mission dedicated specifically to young flag bearers, with its symbolism and defence lessons. We engage young people with citizenship and defence and, ultimately, with what the soldier’s role in all this can be.
DZ: To finish, what advice would you give a young combatant of this latest generation? What would you like people to remember about your action and the spirit of the UNC?
GEN: I would like them to remember that during their active service they are in a military structure, and that the combatant world, especially associations like ours, is a structure where we share all the values we have in common. With regard to our fellow citizens, the aim is to show what we do and our pride in having shared these values; it is an element of recognition. Join us, because we stand together in the values we share. We need to draw on one another and on our mutual experiences, because we all contribute to one single mission: defending the values of France.
You can access all our podcast episodes, including our exclusive episodes, subscribe to our magazine, receive the next print issues and benefit from offers on gear and equipment from our partners: click directly on the image below on our Premium area
